How to Launch a Board Game and Leverage Amazon with Hasan Hasmani of Underdog Games

June 4, 2020

Kevin Weiss

co-founder and CEO of Underdog Games

Listen to the podcast

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

Hasan Hasmani’s background and how he got into ecommerce
Hasan talks about the history of Underdog Games and how he funded the business
Why Hasan and Charlie Bink, his business partner, focused on the national parks
Hasan talks about the best marketing platform for the promotion of Underdog Games and why they rank high on Amazon through organic search
Hasan’s best discovery channels for selling board games and how Underdog Games runs their Facebook Ads
Eric Stopper explains what a funnel refers to in reference to Russell Brunson’s funnel system
Hasan discusses product promotion through video and how much it costs and which Facebook Ads metric is most vital
What aspects of a video makes it shareable?
Hasan reveals the new game he and his team are working on and what’s exciting about it

In this episode…

One of the toughest categories on Amazon to break into is the one for board games. A good number of people go in and drive sales through PPC, but Hasan Hasmani and his business partner chose to go a different route. They chose to focus on national parks as the niche for their board game and this has allowed their brand to grow organically on Amazon and get more than 1,000 reviews.

In addition to organic searches, Hasan and his business partners have learned the best Facebook Ads strategies through which they engage potential customers and drive sales for their board games.

On this episode of the Buy Box Experts podcast, Hasan Hasmani gets interviewed by Eric Stopper about starting up his board game business and growing it on Amazon. He explains how he and his business partner, Charlie Bink, came up with the idea of a board game involving national parks, their marketing strategies, how they scaled the business on Amazon, and the next game up their sleeve. Stay tuned.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

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Episode Transcript

Intro 00:09
Welcome to the buy box experts podcast we bring to light the unique opportunities brands face in today’s e commerce world.

Eric Stopper 00:18
Hey and welcome to the buy box experts podcast. This is Eric stopper. This episode is brought to you by Buy Box Experts. Buy Box Experts takes ambitious brands and we make them unbeatable. We’ve got a team of consultants come and talk to us there is a million reasons why you might need help on Amazon channel control, or advertising or listing optimization. We do it all and we are always trying to find the next new thing the new tools and new strategies to help you out so we can help you find the parts of your business that aren’t really as bulletproof as you might think. So come and talk to us, go to our website, buyboxexperts.com click on the free analysis button you’ll be connected with me or a member of my team and we would love to talk to you today. I am joined by Hasan Hasmani, the founder and CEO of Underdog Games. their flagship product is a game called trekking the national parks. It’s it’s basically like Ticket to Ride, but it’s something even more, they’ve got all these little tokens and there’s a way to play it as you explore the national parks of the United States. It takes about 60 minutes to play. If you’re a lover of board games and the outdoors, it’s like a perfect mix between those two things. It’s the winner of several Board Game Awards and boasts over 1005 star reviews on Amazon. Now board games are are difficult on Amazon. And I think Hasan is going to be able to give it to a straight so I brought him on to share some of his of his insights. Hasan, welcome to the show.

Hasan Hasmani 01:40
Hey, thank you for having me, man. I really appreciate it.

Eric Stopper 01:43
So before before we started here, you’re telling me a little bit about your background? give everybody the rundown, man. Where’d you come from? How’d you get into this whole Amazon mess?

Hasan Hasmani 01:52
Yeah, cool. Cool. Cool. So I started off running a business after my junior year of college. So Like most people, I started off by googling how to make money selling online. They ended up taking the proven Amazon course by Jim cockrum. And it was really cool. You know, it put me down a path where I started getting curious about e commerce absorbing as much information as I could do and a lot of Facebook groups all that. And then you know, it went from liquidation into online arbitrage, retail arbitrage to eventually I started getting into the board game industry. We wholesale, so I started by distribution, all that. And it was a lot of like for, for me, as a 22 year old at a time. It was just a quick way to scale business. There’s few ways to scale a business as fast as wholesale, right? Cash Flow is absolutely phenomenal. So as I was growing that up, as I was scaling my business up, I really wanted to eventually have my own brand. I figured long term As the biggest way to grow value is to have your own brain you can sell a brand for multiple than you could wholesale business. It’s very hard so wholesale business and there’s a whole path to how I eventually discovered tracking national parks I started the business but yes in my background selling Amazon I think I’ve sold pretty much every avenue there is on Amazon. I’ve tried pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun. I was supposed to be an accountant full time. But I ended up I went I got I always got my CPA, but I didn’t. And now I do this full time.

Eric Stopper 03:31
And no regrets, huh?

Hasan Hasmani 03:32
No, it’s a lot of fun.

Eric Stopper 03:35
Right on right on. So I understand that you have been able to carve out Kickstarter. And and how have you done any of the other crowdfunding platforms to kind of garner the first bit of money for these for these jobs that you’re doing?

Hasan Hasmani 03:50
Well, so, as underdog we haven’t run a Kickstarter before. The story of the trek national parks is a little unique. I think giving the listeners some background. It would help guide the conversation. So Charlie bink is my full time creative director. He had created the game with his family back in 2015 or 2014. They ran the first Kickstarter. The parents of Charlie’s parents had hiked all of the National Parks at a time there was only 59. And then they wanted to make an activity that allowed people to the allowed the love of the national parks to continue to the next generation, right people that grow and bond together with with their love of the national parks. So they their son was a board game designer at the time. And they created a board game together. When I met Charlie, he had been running the business for a few years, but wanted to grow and we met and we wanted to create a partnership. So I hired Charlie and I licensed the game tracking the national parks. So tracking the national parks was on Kickstarter in 2014. But that was before me. And Underdog Games has never done a Kickstarter what we did I would check the national parks what I brought to the table was that we exploded the game through marketing. So that was one of our that was one of my biggest skill points at the time having all this experience of e commerce that I did via Amazon, understanding a lot of the e commerce landscape. We actually did not do a Kickstarter, we created a second edition of national parks. We actually didn’t do it through Kickstarter, we did a pre order through Shopify. We installed the pre order app on Shopify, and just ran Facebook ads to it, right. We sold almost 5000 copies in two months via the via the Facebook ads on the pre order app on Shopify website. And then launched in q4 on Amazon in October. So I tracking national parks launch but now for various reasons. We are doing a Kickstarter for our new game checking the world coming up soon.

Eric Stopper 05:52
Checking the world okay. There’s there’s a lot to unpack in there. So So Charlie’s this full time creative director, he he helped develop the game. Why? I mean, was was this game, the right game to focus your efforts on? Could it have been anything?

Hasan Hasmani 06:10
Yeah, so there’s a, there is a lot to back up to that question. So for me the main reason one reasons I became obsessed with this because I loved the national parks. I’m a huge hiker. I mentioned that. At the time, it was a really a huge board game person. I was just loved it. And I’ve been in the board game industry. Therefore, I thought it was a perfect fit for the company. I would want to start I’ve always I was always on the scout for a product. I was always looking around for what could I start my actual brand around, and to get out of wholesale, and a board game about national parks that seemed like a perfect fit. And national parks were always also a great fit because there’s a huge identity around national parks. So it’s easier to a board game as a discovery product then you have to think of or you have to think of any product you create. That’s going to be a discovery product. As how what kind of ads can I create? What kind of Facebook ads can I create? What kind of influencers Can I connect with? However you plan on having people discover your product, you have to think about that before that a clear picture in mind. Being someone I love travel beings, I love national parks, I had a clear picture in mind of how to advertise game. So

Hasan Hasmani 07:21
that made it the perfect game for this happening.

Eric Stopper 07:24
So So specifically, then I kind of want to dig into the particulars of that. What were the best channels for you? You did Facebook ads, you mentioned influencers. You could see a clear vision of how people were going to discover this game. What was the best thing that you did?

Hasan Hasmani 07:40
Yeah, so actually we ourselves into influencers that much because for us, that wasn’t the best discovery Avenue. I was just using this for surprises almost all Facebook ads. It was almost 100% of Facebook guides. We did end up ranking on Amazon, for board games for family for your keywords and debt ranking. Definitely has helped us. But that wasn’t urging, applying like, we never launched a product with the dependency of ranking on it. We had avenues of getting visibility via avenues, particularly Facebook guides of getting discovery. So if we had ever if he had relied on ranking the product, we’d be in trouble. But the ranking kind of happened in conjunction with us on advertising.

Eric Stopper 08:26
So I have brand analytics pulled up on Amazon right now, and tracking the national parks. It has five positions for keywords. So like out of the top 2 million keywords, tracking the national parks is 511 99,000. Right. So there are enough people searching for tracking the national parks organically. Now Amazon has picked it up as quote unquote, a significant keyword. So

Hasan Hasmani 08:54
I’ve actually had friends tell me that they’re, you know that people doing keyword research and our keywords Coming up cuz it’s actually nap it’s gonna get December it’s even higher up. It’s in like that one point I think we get like 12,000

Eric Stopper 09:07
so you have all this. I mean, these are seemingly organic people you you weren’t running this thing with advertisements on Amazon specifically that wasn’t the girl

09:15
we run

Eric Stopper 09:15
00 PPC for under Yeah. So literally 100% of the sales that you get through Amazon are unpaid.

09:24
Yes. So Facebook ads

Eric Stopper 09:28
Yeah. So other other than so Amazon though no PPC dollars are spent?

Hasan Hasmani 09:32
No. So we spend money on Amazon our deals. So I think the odds are like I do several interviews. So there’s a very, very specific reason why it’s because those are great discovery avenues right? So if you view everything as a discovery Avenue, then you look you look at Amazon and first a lot of people right so keyword research right? There is a difference between the shallow you know, a specific keyword and shallow depth and then a very broad keyword and has like a lot of listing. So a shallow keyword or a very specific keyword would be something like, you know, the classic example of garlic press. When you search garlic press, you want to find garlic bread. So it’s a very specific keyword, right? It’s very attributable to the thing that you’re searching. So the first thing, you’re just comparing different types of garlic presses. In board games, there’s better phrases for this, but in board games, there, people are not people don’t already know exactly what they’re searching for. They’re not specifically searching for an item. So it’s just it’s a very broad keyword and there’s so many games out there that relying on you know, keyword PPC for selling, it’s gonna be super, super super. Right? Like, where’s your rates gonna be super low, you’re gonna pay for a lot of clicks. So as a form of discovery, PPC is a terrible in something like board games, right? It’s a discovery project. So therefore, if if you want to find discovery avenues, it’s on Amazon Lightning Deals and Black Friday Cyber Monday deals and probably videos Those are the best things that Amazon gives you in terms of discovery.

Eric Stopper 11:05
So, I mean, I have, I have lots of questions. I guess the main question that I have, though, is, there are people who are listening to this who are trying to sell board games, right? They might, they might be doing the arbitrage thing, or they might have even invented one hour. And I know a specific guy who listens to this podcast, who has struggled heavily because his first focus was Amazon. He was like, yeah, we’re gonna launch this board game on Amazon, and it’s gonna be great. And it didn’t pan out because of the reasons that you just mentioned. So Facebook is on this list, but is there a short list of discovery channels that you can think of right now that everybody should at least consider? I can think of, you know, maybe Facebook, Instagram? I mean, would you feel like Snapchat and tick tock as as discovery ones? what’s what’s kind of your list?

Hasan Hasmani 11:53
Yeah, I mean, if you think about other forms of card games, right card,

Hasan Hasmani 12:01
What do you mean was essentially created because of Instagram followers, right? This one do that for you know 30 million plus Instagram followers. And if you have that many Instagram followers, then you’re good. Like you can just launch a game, right? Anything

12:15
right?

Hasan Hasmani 12:16
You can launch a game you think about the opo guys do launch a game, that’s a comic, their avenue of sales were email, they just had millions of email subscribers if you have millions of email subscribers once again, you’re good. You can launch a game if you Same thing with cyanide and happiness, right those guys also game so all these guys were influencers, the benefit of being an influencer is that you can launch anything and most a lot of times if the thing that you’re launching is authentic to the audience that you’re launching into, it makes sense. It’s a good fit for you. It’s within, I guess, you know, it’s within what people would expect from you, then you’re going to sell really well. Other forms of advertising I mean, that’s hard. We didi 20 rule a lot of advertising. So we were really good at Facebook ads, it’s what we focus on. Now we’re working on building up a content funnel, to hopefully get some emails and, you know, communicate with our audience. It’s not just it’s not just always transactional. When you build a brand, a lot of it is also that you actually genuinely want to communicate with your audience and you and you’re trying to build a connection with the people that are following you. And the way you build the connection is to give, give something back, right? If you want to create content that’s interesting. Or you want to be able to provide something for your audience, right? That’s their real people. And you want to connect with them. Because it’s important, not just for the bottom line, but for long term for the bright,

Eric Stopper 13:44
right. So Facebook ads, right is kind of this black box. A lot of people who are listening probably have ran Facebook ads in the past I personally, you know, I have to run Facebook ads because I run my own brands. When you do that the the cheapest way right is to is to already have a look alike audience built that you can that you can compound on right? You feed that to Facebook and then they’re able to identify other people who are very similar to that. And you and Charlie are not we’re not influencers when you were when you were peddling this game, right? You guys didn’t have 30 30,000 followers. So I mean, you had to have like a bag of money or something to to do this Facebook process. Did you have any emails? Or did you guys literally start from scratch?

Hasan Hasmani 14:30
No, we start from scratch. I mean, we the company was well funded by me I and I used a lot of my resources that I generated from the wholesale business to start out our dog but actually in reality, it could have completely bootstrapped because our first Facebook ad was to a pre order right so that’s we’re generating sales right away. That’s that’s the beauty of it. Right? So we didn’t have it was very transactional, that transactional but it was very call to action advertising. Start, we can do a lot of you don’t do a lot of funnels. The thing about Facebook ads is that oftentimes you need one of two things to really succeed at Facebook that you need either lifetime value of a customer. So for lifetime value think something like supplements, right people, if people subscribe to a supplement, they their first order might be $30. But in their lifetime, they’ll buy, you know, $500 worth, think like baby clothes, like a mom needs baby clothes all the time because babies are growing. So if you can get them to buy baby clothes from you, then you’ll probably they’ll probably spend a lot more than just that one sale, or you need to average order value. You just need a high margin product. That’s why Casper mattresses, they spent so much money on advertising just because their margins are huge. All that matters. So you need one of those things we actually had neither. It’s hard to have a lifetime on a board game unless you can come up with like a line of board games. And depending on the price of your board game, it’s also usually hard to have a high enough average order value.

Hasan Hasmani 16:02
So yeah, I can’t say that. It’s hard for me to say that we had,

Hasan Hasmani 16:09
like exactly why it worked. But we had a product that really people people really connected to. So that helped.

Eric Stopper 16:18
Yeah, yeah, this this idea of the whole national parks, right, like, people very quickly identify whether they like hiking or not. So it’s a it’s an easy thesis to get people to buy into. Yeah. What How many? How many touchpoints typically, to take for somebody first discovering your product, to actually purchasing it, right. Like, was it just one Facebook ad and then to Facebook ads, and they clicked it and they came on through? Bought it? Yeah. What was the attribution like?

16:46
So it’s really

Hasan Hasmani 16:48
I don’t think we do a good job of figuring that out something partially because if you run ads, you know, first in the beginning, we were running Shopify, but then we start running time at Amazon. If you want to add Samsung, it’s just a black hole of data. Don’t get any data back from Amazon. So you can’t like, attribute anything.

Eric Stopper 17:04
So luckily Not anymore. Finally they they launched attribution like two months ago or so.

Hasan Hasmani 17:09
I’ll be honest with you, I haven’t really played around with this

Eric Stopper 17:14
junk as of the date of this recording. Yeah, we’re in March is junk.

Hasan Hasmani 17:19
Okay, that’s what I’ve heard. That’s why I haven’t really

Eric Stopper 17:21
played around. It’s getting there, right, like Jeff Bezos will walk into the attribution team and anoint it somehow right. And it will be great. But yeah, up to its point, it has kind of been a black box,

Hasan Hasmani 17:32
right? So I can’t say whether we did right so the general flow of Facebook ads is you know, you run an ad to someone. A lot of times it’s a lot of times there’s funnels involved. And the goal is you run an ad to someone they engage with you and then you retarget them and then you create a look alike audience so those are like you know, in terms of Facebook ads, the two keys are usually retarget look like so yeah, we totally you know, we we created a video we got a lot of sales from the video but then we That would run retargeting and get really good sales from that. And then we create a look like you’re really good sales from that. If I can’t tell you the number of touch points required. I have no idea a lot of people bought on the first click. We didn’t we didn’t design funnels if they there wasn’t a specific call design. It was just, it was more of a rotation of ads.

Eric Stopper 18:22
Yeah, and and for those that might have no idea what a funnel is, when, I mean you can look up, what’s his name helped me out. It’s on

18:30
a branch. Yeah. I saw that.

Eric Stopper 18:35
Richard Branson, I’m renting something like that. Russell Brunson,

18:40
Russell,

Eric Stopper 18:42
is that not his last name, but we’ll figure it out. I’ll post it. I’ll post it on LinkedIn. Um, so he has this concept where when you first engage with somebody, right, you give them a single offer, and the offer usually has to be pretty compelling. But then you essentially upsell them on the next phase of their training. action you can you can look up Click Funnels, it’s like a platform much like Shopify, and Russell Brunson. Russell Brunson. Nailed it. Cool. So, so Russell Brunson has this this funnel system that he uses for, for his websites for his Facebook ads. And it’s pretty compelling, right? It kind of leverages this whole idea of people wanting to get deals, and so long as you’re able to spin it, you know, so that they really feel like they’re getting value. They can be really successful. But it sounds like you didn’t even need to really do that for tracking the national parks people. People got it. They understood it. It was valuable to them does. Why did you sell them at a discount at first? I know you were doing you were doing pre orders. You sold them at that $50 rate.

Hasan Hasmani 19:43
Oh, actually, yeah. So we were doing a pre order because the ship date was like four months away. We did it at a 20% discount. Okay. Yeah.

Eric Stopper 19:53
That makes sense. So you also mentioned that you did a video. A lot of people that I talked to, they don’t know how much they should spend on a video. Get from all these different design places in your in your opinion write a really solid Facebook video, Riyadh How much did you spend? Oh,

Hasan Hasmani 20:11
we did on our cell phone so we didn’t spend anything? No, you know what I don’t

Eric Stopper 20:16
I’m not gonna laugh at that because that this is the way right like you got to do that, you know we got these great phones that can do it. So it was just you and Charlie just just slept.

20:26
It was my kitchen table. So

Hasan Hasmani 20:29
if you want I can put the link in the video, too. But yeah, that was on my kitchen table. It was a video, we found we we really went the route is. So I can here’s probably in terms of Facebook ads, I’m probably going to give you the single most important thing that anyone anyone in the world should focus on. And yet I will bet you that 99% of people still ignore it. The only metric that really matters in Facebook ads is reached to shares and it’s Is that a metric that you can get inside of the Facebook ad console? It used to be, I think, but it doesn’t seem to be anymore. If you have shares on your ad, just be cognizant there if there if the video itself has a really good call to action, because if it does have a call to action, and it gets shared, it means nothing, because people will just watch the video and they won’t do anything. But if he really has a call to action, like hey, buy this, this is a product that you should buy. And it gets shared, then all your other metrics will always work out. shares are the most powerful thing about social media shares, the most powerful thing in Facebook. So if you’re not creating a video that is designed to be shared, then you might get success. That’s awesome. But you’re not going to be able to take advantage of one of the most powerful things about social media, which is that people will share with each other. So your cost will decrease dramatically. When you create the video. The reason that a cellphone video works really well, is because it seems authentic. Now think about chairs. If you really think deeper about what chairs are If I share something on my wall, on my wall, or if I share something to you, I am saying to another person or to everyone I know that, hey, look at this thing. Right? Right. People are not going to say, hey, look at this thing for an ad unless the ad is maybe funny, or if the ad has some sort of value. So if you expect people to share your ad that you just like for a product you just created without having any sort of social value to it. I mean, good luck, right? That’s, it’s not really gonna work either way. So when you create the video, think about what’s shareable about your product, or what is shareable in general, and created that one, and that’s one of the reasons social media sent to do really well, on something like this is because they stay authentic, while you’re scrolling down your newsfeed. So you can look at click through rate, very important. We do look at click through rate, we look at conversion data, we look at all these things, but they are important, right? Of course, if you’re sending to a Shopify conversion, that shouldn’t be one of the most important number of metrics you looked at, but if you’re Talking about like, what is the foundation on which I’m going to decide how to make creatives and how I’m going to decide if things are working or that I really truly believe that reach to shares is the most important one.

Eric Stopper 23:11
Reach to shares. So we’re talking about impression.

Hasan Hasmani 23:16
Those impressions, there’s reach reaches usually a smaller number of impressions.

Eric Stopper 23:21
And then we want to divide that by shares and divide shares.

Hasan Hasmani 23:25
Okay, yeah, you can either do it like while you’re looking at it, you can just do in your head, or you can just export them and share it a little bit used to have it when I first started on Facebook, it was there. That’s probably I’m grateful it was because I thought it was a cool metric. I would look at it. But they removed it. And then it’s kind of nice. Now it’s a hidden trick for us. Right? So I remember that it was there. So I still think about it all the time.

Eric Stopper 23:49
So there’s, I mean, there’s a lot to unpack in everything that you just you just talked about, right? This whole idea of word of mouth and virality and share ability. Right? Those are some of the things that you said I’m one of them. One of the questions that I have is about something specific that you said that you designed the video to be shared, that you designed it to be shareable. Yeah. You spoke to the fact that it was on a cell phone, so it seemed a little bit more organic. But what aspects of a video do you think really make it shareable? Yeah, and then maybe funny, right or Yeah, demographically targeted? What do you think?

Hasan Hasmani 24:25
Yeah, so those are actually both very onpoint. So think about the type of game we have. It’s very family oriented game. And it’s about the national parks. If I’m watching some entity, if I’m exploring kids, the type of videos I’m making are not the same. As if I’m making a project in national parks right here towards the park, right? You have to understand that you have to understand your audience for us, you know, where we really designed the game to be something that friends and family can play together, kind of a wholesome feel to it. And we created a video that talks about the story, but also when you when if you see the actual video, it’s just us painting around the board. Like it’s just showing the board on the kitchen table and focusing on the national parks party, because that’s what people cared about the national parks board game, right? So it is, I wouldn’t even say like super purposeful, like we were, we were just filming a bunch of videos. And then we experimented, Which ones did really well. But there was a there was an understanding between all of us, and that the video is not going to focus on us that does not include us at all. It’s Charlie talking, but the video itself is the national parks. And we would zoom in on the parks, and we would talk about the story. The story is really cool, right? The family that bonded together couldn’t walk on National Park. So it rings true for a lot of people. And it’s the thing that we’re trying to encourage is one love of national parks and to bonding with your family slash bonding with your friends. Then those are the two things we focused on.

Eric Stopper 25:53
I think that that’s great, man. That’s the real way to establish a niche right you pick you pick a market that has people who are willing to share things together and then you speak to their core values. And that becomes shareable. So a little a little advice, just to kind of distill that down for everybody. If your game does not target kind of two aspects of somebody’s life, then it’s probably not going to do as well, because they, they don’t have a reason to share it. If you only target the core value, right, it’s just for their family. But if you target their core value and something that they care about a lot, then you’re going to have a lot more successes. Is that fair to say? It’s on?

Hasan Hasmani 26:34
Yeah, probably there’s one caveat to that. There’s one exception to that. If your game is exceptionally fun to buy, if your game is like the top 1.01% of the world’s games to play, then you might, you might win just as a word of mouth if you can get it. So if it’s the type of game that if you if I can get it to 1000 people and then they’ll do all the marketing for That’s awesome. But be honest with yourself because there’s literally like, one game of that year that comes out. Yeah, right. It’s like yeah, gotta be really brutally honest. Like, is this the one of those games that breaks all the rules of everything else? Because if you have an exceptional product, usually things don’t work out. It’s just the way it is. Right? If you have a product that is so so unbelievably good, that it is inevitable that it’s in everyone’s hands and great gas yourself.

Eric Stopper 27:26
Yeah, I would, I would say the the one in recent history for me was probably Exploding Kittens and you any spoke to that that game is just so fun, right? Those guys really nailed it. Same with the unicorn stable. That’s a blast to play and those of and those have sold. I think they’re at the million dollar point now or the million.

Hasan Hasmani 27:44
Probably probably bad. they’ve sold millions of copies.

Eric Stopper 27:48
Um, well, so Hasan, I know that you are, you know, you’ve you’ve launched now two games, right? And you have a third on the way tell it tell us about that.

Hasan Hasmani 27:58
Oh, yeah. Cool. So we went back into the we went back into like, what do we identify with and we wanted to create and I love to travel. So one of my biggest passions, and we have tracking national parks is travel game. So we wanted to grow that up, we created a world travel board game, it is not just national parks, a lot of them are not national parks is just iconic destinations around the world. We truly, truly wanted to create an incredible experience for not just people I love games, but also people that don’t play a lot of games. So we worked really hard to make it attainable for anyone to play and really get that feel like you’re actually traveling. So it’s like the beauty. There’s beautiful art in the game that we custom design from artists, and the back of each card has all information about it. If you have a family, I think it’s a great way to spend time with your family. If you have kids, you know it’s a it’s not educational isn’t it’s not really that much educational value, except for there’s all facts on it. But the cool thing is, it’s a map. They’ll know where these places are and the goal is for them To be inspired to learn, right? It’s not to teach them it’s to inspire people to learn more about the world. So we’re really excited for that Kickstarter is coming out. Ted tentatively, I think that’s right word, March 17.

Eric Stopper 29:13
March 17. Awesome. In the next few weeks, guys go and visit underdoggames.com. And go and get in touch with Hasan and his team, try to work with them and go and get yourself a copy.

29:26
Thank you guys so much. Hasan. Thanks so much for coming on.

Outro 29:30
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